3ToTrade – Communication with The Don Of Fake Flash – HarryEvidence
Posted by KittyFireFlash on September 4, 2008
HarryEvidence has been battling 3ToTrade for his refunds for fake flash drives. The following is a selection of email communications in chronological order as presented to us by HarryEvidence. It does not begin at the early stages but when things started to heat up.
Here is an except of an eBayers Conversations with the Don of Fake Flash – 3ToTrade. We shall name this eBayer HarryEvidence. To learn why we call 3ToTrade the Don of Fake Flash in the Orient, just type 3ToTrade in the search box.
We use pen names or “Nom de Plume” at SOSFakeFlash. So this eBayer was given the name of HarryEvidence and will be known as such at SOSFakeFlash.
—–Original Message—–
From: 3to Trade [mailto:3totrade@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 August 2008 04:52
To: HarryEvidence
Subject: Re: ” 32GB 32 GO USB 2.0 Flash Memory Pen Stick Drive GB GDear friend,
Thanks for your fast response. You know you bought two items from us with 55.01GBP. But you need us to refund you 65.01GBP, What’s more,you don’t would like to ship the item back. I think it is not fair for me.
I have promised to full refund you after receiving your item or give you the partial refund if you keep the item by yourself. But i am sorry to know that we can’t make an agreement.
If you insist on choosing not to ship the item back but want to get the 66.01GBP,not for the original price.I think i have to write this to ebay.
I also hope you can enjoy the item when you get it. But sometimes there are some problems of the factory’s technical,it is out of my control.
I really want to resolve the problem for you as soon as possible. Hope you can understand my situation. So sorry for the inconvenience caused. Waiting for your response.
Best regards,
3T**
My Response:
3ToTrade,
Please DO write to eBay. I would be happy for you to draw attention to yourself and your illegal activities.
The law does not allow me to return these items through the Royal Mail
– you already know this.That is why I now subtract my postage costs to you from my original claim against you.
The additional £10 ( £5 for each item) is to compensate me for the struggle I am having with you. If you had refunded me straight away I would not have spent MANY hours of my valuable time responding to your endless stream of standard replies avoiding the issue and refusing to repay what you owe to me . THAT IS FAIR.
You are rapidly approaching the time limit I gave you on 07 AUG 08 of 7 days to pay. After this date I will pursue this matter through the UK Criminal System & Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China Judiciary.
This action will be a free service for me but I think not for you!
I await payment of £65.01.
Thank you.
One Hour Later:
—–Original Message—–
From: 3to Trade [mailto:3totrade@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 August 2008 10:22
To: HarryEvidenceSubject: Re: 32GB 32 GO USB 2.0 Flash Memory Pen Stick Drive GB G
Dear friend,
I feel so sorry for the inconvenience caused. I just want to resolve the problem for you as soon as possible.
Because i want both of our life become more easier. I am sorry to tell you that we can’t refund the shipping fee.
Because it is the policy of our company. It is decided by my manager,i can’t make any desicion.
But i can ship a nice gift to you for my sincere apologies when we receive your item except the full refund to you.
Can you accept this?
If you can’t accept this,shall i partial refund to you for my sincere apologies? It is very headache for me of this problem.I want to resolve it for you quickly. So sorry for this.
Waiting for your response.
Best regards,
3T**
My Response:
3ToTrade,
I do NOT want a nice gift thank you.
I do NOT want a partial refund.
I DEMAND payment as already explained.
You CAN refund the shipping fee.It is ILLEGAL for me to send the items back in the mail.
Tel your manager to take over this communication if you cannot make decisions.
DO not avoid this issue any longer by replying with counter offers and bribes.
It will be much better for you to pay me and finish this problem quickly without further involvement of the Police.
Thank you.
I appear at this point to have a new style response from 3ToTrade. He’s still trying hard to get the items back, but seems to have conceded in battle over the shipping fee. Anyone else had this one?
—–Original Message—–
From: 3to Trade [mailto:3totrade@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 August 2008 10:44
To: HarryEvidenceSubject: Re: 32GB 32 GO USB 2.0 Flash Memory Pen Stick Drive GB G
Dear friend,
I really sorry to hear that we still haven’t reached an agreement afer making so much communication.
Ok,If you would like to ship the item back first,and close the two dispute.
I would like to give you the full refund include the shipping fee from my little salary,okay?
I really have a headache for this problem. I just want to help you resolve the problem quickly. Waiting for your fast response.
Best regards,
3T**
My response:
3ToTrade,
Thank you for your quick reply.
As I have said, I will be breaking the law and our customs regulations if I send the items back, so I am not allowed to.
Please pay me the full refund, the shipping fee I paid you and the £10 for MY headache.
Thank you
I thought this extract from an email I sent to PayPal & their response may be of interest to the XXXXXXX.
……. I hope you would agree that it is not enough merely to take off him his profits from illegal activities. He must be put out of business not just out of PayPal or eBay. I say this with the sure knowledge that I am not just a one off victim of his crimes. Furthermore, I am aware that he is in full possession of all the information he needs to realise that he trading illegally. That makes his action intentional, not a sorry mistake by an honest trader who has himself been sold dubious items.
They replied:
PayPal will seek to resolve the claim within 30 days of the date the dispute has been escalated into a claim, though such time frame may be extended at PayPal’s discretion to accommodate the investigation. If we require further information, we will contact you directly through email.
If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
I also appreciate your concern about the activity on your account. While the vast majority of online transactions are completed without complication, fraudulent activity can occur. If you feel you have become a victim of Internet Fraud, there is help available.
Below are options that can be used outside of PayPal.
1. File an internet complaint report against the other party.
2. File a police report against the other party.
Anyone know if this is a standard reply too?
Good luck all,
HarryEvidence
This entry was posted on September 4, 2008 at 17:41 and is filed under eBay, Fake Flash, Guilty, PayPal, Stories. Tagged: 3ToTrade, eBay, eBay Fake Flash Guides, eBayFakeFlashSeller, Fraud USB Flash, PayPal. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
SOSFakeFlash 
Eddie H said
Hi all,
HarryEvidence here and I simply can’t unerstand PayPal’s conduct. This dumbfounds me completely. I can see this is going to take some civil action but am beginning to wonder if I have enough energy. Could it be that this is exactly what PayPal are hoping? They must consider the profits they make from a power-seller like this to be more important than ‘little ‘ people like me!
This is one response – I got the same for another separate claim agains 3totrade.
——————————————————-
Dear XXXXXX XXXXXXX,
We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim.
Seller’s Name: Chiu Sui Chun
Seller’s Email: 3totrade@gmail.com
Seller’s Transaction ID: XXXXXXXXXXX
Transaction Date: 14 Jul 2008
Transaction Amount: -28.99 GBP
Your Transaction ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Case Number: XXXXXXXXXXX
Buyer’s Transaction ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Based on PayPal’s definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim does not qualify for a refund.
For more information about PayPal Buyer Protection, please review our User
Agreement:
https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside
Thank you for your cooperation.
Yours sincerely,
Protection Services Department
———————————————————–
MY RESPONSE:
Please explain! These drives are COUNTRFEIT and I know this seller is selling under other eBay I.D.s too.
To date I know of over 65 of these drives.
THIS IS ILLEGAL AND I WILL NAME PAYPAL AS AN ACCESSORY TO THIS CRIME IN MY POLICE REPORT IF YOU DO NOT SORT THIS OUT.
Thank you.
XXXXXXXXXX
HarryEvidence said
Hello fellow victims,
Here is the response I got from PayPal to the above email I sent them. Sorry it’s rather long-winded, but please note the new address for them – at least knew to me, some of you may already have been here! It is followed by my reply to them.
Good luck to all who are still fighting – it seems to be a bit of a lottery as to who gets paid out and who has to spend endless hours chasing the rat that is PayPal round in circles. I’m sure they hope we just give up and disappear up our own proverbial orifice.
From: ppelce@paypal.co.uk [mailto:ppelce@paypal.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2008 10:33
To: XXXXXXX
Subject: Office of Executive Escalations – final response (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX) :ppk4
Dear XXXXXXXXXXXXX,
Thank you for your recent email dated 3 September 2008 to the offices of PayPal. I sincerely apologise for any difficulties you have encountered while using PayPal. I have reviewed your PayPal account and your recent enquiry. Please allow me to offer further explanation concerning your issue.
A review of your PayPal account registered under the email address, xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx, shows that on 14 July 2008, you sent a payment via PayPal to Chiu Sui Chun, 3totrade@gmail.com, in the amount of £26.02 GBP. The transaction ID for this PayPal payment was xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
On 10 August 2008, we received a dispute from you citing ?Goods Received ?
Significantly not as Described?. We then placed this payment on hold pending an investigation into your claim. Within the communication associated to the dispute you cited that the item received would not be authentic. The same day you escalated the dispute into a claim. Case number is xxxxxxxxxxxx.
Our records show that on 11 August 2008 we sent an email to you asking to return the purchased item to the seller in the same condition you received it in order to qualify for a refund.
In order to rectify this error, the buyer complaint case was again reviewed on 18 August 2008. In order to continue with the investigation of this dispute, we asked you to supply documentation to support your claim that the item was not authentic within 10 days. We informed you that failure to provide PayPal with the requested documentation within the specified timeframe results in your claim being denied. On 27 August 2008 we sent you an email reminding you of providing the requested documentation. As we did not receive the requested documentation the case was closed in the seller’s favour on 2 September 2008.
A further review of your PayPal account shows that on 14 July 2008, you sent another payment via PayPal to Chiu Sui Chun, 3totrade@gmail.com. This PayPal payment was ……
… what followed here was an identical copy of the above for a second claim on the same day. They continued …..
While the circumstances of your disputes are regrettable, your failure to provide supporting documentation for your claims was the single determining factor in the resolution of this case.
However because these transactions involved the transfer of counterfeit goods, I am willing to review the details of your cases and the actions of the seller in more detail.
In order to continue with the investigation of your claims, we require that you supply documentation to support your claims that the item was not authentic.
This information should then be faxed to our offices for the attention of Britta Durgeloh at 00353 1 24 32102 until 20 September 2008. Please include a cover sheet with your name, address and the case numbers. On receipt of this documentation I will then review your cases and contact you directly of my actions.
Ideally, we would like to see every transaction completed in a fashion that is satisfactory to both parties. Unfortunately this is not always the final result of every transaction and we cannot protect customers from any day to day disagreements that can unfortunately arise between customers. Because we are not an escrow service and have never seen the item in question, never had the opportunity to inspect or review the item, or to list its attributes or qualities, it is impossible for us to arbitrate issues regarding the intrinsic attributes or qualities of an item. To ensure any matters of arbitration are balanced and fair, customers involved in ?Goods Received ? Significantly not as Described? cases are requested to supply documentation from a third party, thereby replacing their own potentially biased judgment of an item with the unbiased account of a party not involved or related to the transaction in any way.
PayPal?s User Agreement is an agreement that each user must accept and agree to in order to use the PayPal service. The terms of this agreement apply and legally bind each user every time they use the PayPal service.
When you opened your PayPal account on 25 June 2006 you were required to and did accept this User Agreement.
Please refer to the relevant portions of the User Agreement for your
reference:
User Agreement:
1. Our Relationship With You
1.1 PayPal is only a Payment Service Provider. ?includes-
PayPal enables you to make payments to and accept payments from third parties. PayPal is an independent contractor for all purposes. PayPal does not have control of nor, assumes the liability or legality for the products or services that are paid for with our Service. We do not guarantee the identity of any User or ensure that a buyer or a seller will complete a transaction.
13. Disputes between Buyers and Sellers – Buyer Protection Programmes
13.7 Claims Procedures. ?includes-
a. If a buyer files a Claim asserting receipt of a Significantly Not as Described item, we will generally require the buyer to return the item to the seller at the buyer?s expense and to provide proof of return delivery.
In some circumstances, we may require the buyer to send the item to us or to a third party specified by us, to obtain documentation from a qualified third party substantiating the Claim, or to provide evidence that the item has been destroyed. In some instances, we may ask a buyer to support a Claim by filing and supplying a copy of a police report.
13.17 Seller and Buyer Cooperation. If you or another User you have sent money to or received money from initiates a Dispute, Claim or Chargeback, you agree to provide to any requesting party on a timely basis any documentation necessary to resolve the Dispute, Claim or Chargeback. You also agree to fully cooperate with PayPal in all aspects of our Dispute and Claim processes, and to reimburse your Account to the extent it reflects an amount you owe to us because we decide to grant a Claim submitted by another User. We will cancel Claims of buyers who do not respond to inquiries regarding the Claim within the time specified. Sellers who fail to respond in a timely manner to our inquiries regarding a Claim forfeit any right to appeal, and we will reimburse the buyer from the seller?s PayPal Account. We do not act as the agent of any User when taking actions to resolve disputes between Users.
Conclusion:
I apologise for any inconvenience caused regarding this matter. If you require clarification on any of the issues raised, please feel free to contact us directly at ppelce@paypal.co.uk. Please be advised however that this is our final response.
You might also like to note that if you are not satisfied with our response, you can refer this matter to the following authorities:
Financial Ombudsman Service
PO Box 4
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London E14 9SR
Phone number: 0845 080 1800
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org/publications/consumer-leaflet.htm
A hardcopy of the leaflet, ?Your Complaint and the Ombudsman? is available on request from PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. & Cie, S.C.A.
Or in writing only to our regulator:
Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF)
110, Route d?Arlon
L-2991 Luxembourg
Yours sincerely,
Britta Durgeloh
Executive Escalations
PayPal, an eBay Company
MY RESPONSE:
Dear PayPal,
Thank you for your response and for looking further at my case(s).
Re: Evidence
On 11/08/08 I sent an email (attached) as advised by yourselves describing and documenting the test results on both counterfeit drives.
On 26/08/08 (attached) I offered to send the evidence to PayPal for inspection.
On another issue, 3totrade (or kaho.chan, Shopwithmela, Whatcools – all the same guy!) actually tried at one stage to repay my money but was not allowed to (see attachments). I assume this is because account was under investigation. The fact remains he WAS still willing to pay me but has got away with it again. Now he has gone to ground and is trading under different names and does not respond.
If you require further evidence of this sellers activities I would suggest you look here:
https://sosfakeflash.wordpress.com
Thank you again for taking the time to have another look. I would however implore you, for the sake of many other eBayers I know of, to simplify your system for reporting sellers like this with a quick track to a human with the resources to act quickly and effectively.
Please let me know if this evidence is acceptable. It is a very well respected test programme within the industry.
Regards,
xxxxxxxxx
FakeStopper said
That is a very good communication you have there with PayPal. I do hope PayPal put their act togeher and actually do something about it! Instead of always getting the automated reply!! I also hope that PayPal is aware of this webstie and evidence against the seller. Do keep us updated with the response from PayPal.
HarryEvidence said
Hello All,
After nearly three months of battle I got my money back. It shouldn’t be the case, but it shows if you keep on pushing and making yourself a complete pain in their arse there’s a glimmer of hope that they might cave in.
It would seem that this latest address is manned by humans (or at least a higher form Artificial Intelligence) who are capable of making executive decisions. I suggest maybe going straight for the jugular and by-passing all the official channels – but remember to include ALL your story to date, together with your evidence (test results etc.) You don’t want to give them any chance to mess you about any more.
If you’ve not previousely offered to send them the drive(s) then do so! As you can see in their response, they like to say they had ‘never had the opportunity to inspect or review the item ….’
Could this action be seen as having set a precedent?
——————————————————————
From: Office of Executive Escalations ppelce@paypal.co.uk
Received: Wed 17/09/2008 15:17
Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx,
Thank you for your recent email and the enclosed attachments.
Please be advised that while I appreciate you have provided results from the diagnostics test which you performed on the USB drives, PayPal generally only accepts a valid third-party document from an individual or company qualified to appraise the items received, such as a dealer, stockist or store. Further to this, the documentation should be on letter-headed paper that includes the name, address and phone number of the appraiser. In cases where third-party documentation as above cannot be obtained, we recommend that a customer contact their local Trading Standards office; we will also accept documentation from a Trading Standards officer. Because we are not an escrow service and have never seen the item in question, never had the opportunity to inspect or review the item, or to list its attributes or qualities, it is impossible for us to arbitrate issues regarding the intrinsic attributes or qualities of an item. Therefore we may in certain cases, especially suspected counterfeit, request additional documentation from a third party to substantiate the claim.
While I note that you during your correspondence you have referred to the disputed items as counterfeit, please be advised that the term ‘counterfeit’ would be applied to an item which has deliberately been manufactured to mimic or replicate a genuine or superior item from an established brand. Due to the fact that the auction listing for items
xxxxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxxxx did not list the brand or manufacturer of the USB drives, they would not be classed as counterfeit items as such.
However, I fully accept your statement that the items received were not the items described in the auction listings, which stated that you would be receiving 32 GB USB drives.
As a one-time exception, as I am aware that this matter has already caused considerable distress and frustration, I will be happy to accept the information provided by you. Please note that as it is not PayPal’s procedure to issue reimbursement for items which are still in an individual’s possession, I will need to request that you confirm in writing that the item is no longer in your possession.
With regard to this, I have attached an Affidavit for you to complete and return to me, confirming that the items have been destroyed or discarded.
Once I receive this Affidavit, I will be in a position to process a full refund (including the original shipping costs) for both transactions to your PayPal account. Please fax the signed Affidavit for my attention to fax number 00353 1243 2102.
Finally, I would like to thank you for your co-operation in providing information about the seller. While I am sure you can understand that, for data protection reasons, I am unable to disclose information about any
action(s) which we may have taken against the seller’s account to you, I can confirm that we take any allegations of internet fraud and the sale of counterfeit items extremely seriously. When we determine that a PayPal member is involved in activities which pose a significant credit or fraud risk to the PayPal community, or we believe that their actions may cause financial loss or legal liability for our users or us, we will take appropriate action to prevent continuation of such activities. These actions may include, without limitation, placing a hold on funds in the user’s account, limiting funding sources and payments, limiting access to an account and any or all of the account’s functions, limiting withdrawals, indefinitely suspending or closing their account and refusing to provide our services to them going forward.
We deeply regret the negative experience you have had, but hope that you will continue to use our service for your online transactions and give us an opportunity to demonstrate why PayPal is the leading online payment service in the industry.
Sincerely,
Ms. Siobhán Phelan
Executive Escalations
PayPal, an eBay Company
Copyright © 1999-2008 PayPal. All rights reserved. PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A. Société en Commandite par Actions. Registered Office:
22-24 Boulevard Royal L-2449, Luxembourg, RCS Luxembourg B 118 349
MY RESPONSE:
Sent: Sun 21/09/2008 15:25
Dear Ms. Siobhán Phelan,
Just to let you know I have today faxed the requested Affidavit to the number you supplied and look forward to finally receiving my refund.
Thank you for your attention to this issue.
Regards,
X. Xxxxxx
From: Office of Executive Escalations ppelce@paypal.co.uk
Received: Mon 22/09/2008 09:40
Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx,
Thank you for your email dated 18 September 2008.
I can confirm that we have received your fax. I have now initiated a credit in the total amount of £55.01 GBP for PP-xxx-xxx-xxx (transaction ID
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
PP-xxx-xxx-xxx (transaction ID xxxxxxxxxxxxx). Please allow 72 hours for the funds to post to your PayPal account balance.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Brid
Executive Escalations
PayPal, an eBay Company
Copyright © 1999-2008 PayPal. All rights reserved. PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l.
& Cie, S.C.A. Société en Commandite par Actions. Registered Office: 5th Floor, 22-24 Boulevard Royal, L-2449, Luxembourg, RCS Luxembourg B 118 349
—————————————————————–
I note with some amusement they enjoyed a little dig at me for using incorrect terminology (para 2).
Best of luck to all and hope my post may help someone else.
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